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Who's who in the Web 2.0 Zoo?

Mandy de Waal gets the low down on the new media elite. In this story

* Web 2.0 is about freedom and letting go of control
* Businesses will spend $4.6 billion on Web 2.0
* Who you can trust to unleash Web 2.0's value
* Welcome to the white boy's club

The best description I've heard about Web 2.0 is that it is Velcro. Sticky. Addictive. Viral. What Web 2.0 is depends on who you ask. Definitions include seeing the web as a liberating platform underpinned by a philosophy of freedom and relinquishing control. The central idea is to give up power and embrace the social, open aspects of the Web. Regardless of how you define it, Web 2.0 is having a significant impact on the way businesses operate, how they relate to consumers, how consumers relate to them and how industry targets and interacts with marketplaces.

White boy's club

Empowerment seems to have touched every other industry sector, but this one. Mandy de Waal

Forrester reports that business will spend some $4.6 billion on Web 2.0 related technologies by 2013, and that the world of wikis, widgets, blogs, mashups and social networks will become part and parcel of work life. Then as the Web 2.0 beast expands like a perpetual growth machine, the job of marketers and brand owners will become increasingly more complicated.

As the legendary Cluetrain so smartly put it: “People of the earth... a powerful global conversation has begun. Through the Internet, people are discovering and inventing new ways to share relevant knowledge with blinding speed. As a direct result, markets are getting smarter—and getting smarter faster than most companies.”

With business barely treading water in a Web 2.0 sea, a plethora of consultants and self-styled gurus have leapt into the breach. But in a dynamic and expansive market you know little about, how do you find the very best people to work with?

Simple. You ask the best who they think is the best. What I did was to ask the people considered hot in Web 2.0 to create a dream agency. The rules? They had to choose three of the best people currently working in Web 2.0. The candidates had to be South African, and the choices non partisan. Here then is the low-down on who's who and who you can trust to make Web 2.0 happen for you.

Andrea Mitchell

Andrea Mitchell

Andrea Mitchell has been actively involved in local and international digital marketing since 1997 and has worked closely with key global companies on their digital marketing strategies. As one of the pioneering architects of the SA digital landscape, Andrea is a hugely respected talent in the digital marketing field and is the founder of digiVOX, a specialist digital marketing agency. Her choices:

1. Allan Kent of AtPlay, a division of Saatchi & Saatchi, is one of the most creative thinking minds I have encountered in the Digital space. His creativity, combined with strategic, sharp mind on how best to tap into digital space is a true asset.

2. Vincent Maher of Mail & Guardian Online is a true founder of the blogosphere and strategic mind behind social media, and an advocate for social media.

3. Pete Case of Gloo is a creative mind who really gets the integration of digital in a multi channel environment, and how to incorporate Digital in meaningful, capturing ways.

Chris Roper

Chris Roper

Chris Roper: A former editor-in-chief of Tiscali World Online, portal manager at MWEB and MWEB Africa, and Editor of Social Media at 24.com, Chris Roper is currently the Editor-in-Chief of 24.com. Before the interweb was invented, Chris had a varied career in magazines, including consulting editor to SL, Cape editor for Y magazine, arts correspondent for Mail & Guardian, Editor Obrigado, and monthly columnist for Style, Drive Out, Shape and Best Life. Chris is a popular columnist on News24, if by popular you mean hated, and has a t-shirt blog on 24.com called Cool for a Day.

1. I'd start with Evan Milton from Stonewall.co.za, someone who is both a geek extraordinaire and a rock 'n roll kid. He absolutely loves and lives new media strategy, but is also one of SA's finest music critics. Employing him would be like having a left brain and a right brain in a jar on your desk.

2. Number two on the list would be Vincent Maher of the Mail & Guardian. I'm impressed by his depth of academic knowledge, as well as his utter love of social media. The combination means that you get someone who can create all the usual and inevitable apps, but who can also actually explain what the point of it all is.

3. And then, because more than two men in a room can get kind of smelly, I'd choose Kendyl Smith of mediahussy.co.za for the design and usability side of things. She's the kind of designer who can make something usable beautiful, and something beautiful usable, which is a rare trait.

Dave Duarte

Dave Duarte

Dave Duarte is founder and programme director of Nomadic Marketing at the UCT Graduate School of Business. He also lectures on the MBA, Executive MBA, as well as Open and Customised programmes for corporates. He also teaches compulsory modules at UCT on undergraduate level. His topics are Social Media, Web Marketing, Attention Economics, Innovation and Globalisation. Dave is a partner in Huddlemind Labs; co-owner of Muti.co.za; project lead for Creative Commons South Africa, co-founder of 27dinner; advisory board member for Ikineo; and is a fellow of iCommons.

1. Charl Van Niekerk, code master. At 21 years old, Charl is already working on projects with Google, Joomla and Muti. He speaks code, lives code, and may soon be able to manifest code simply by thinking it. I'd hire Charl for his potential and his ability, his optimism and geeky sensibility. He is very into mobile applications, open-source, standards and scalability.

2. Damien Du Toit, web design. Damien is one of those designers whose work's so good that you hardly notice it until someone points it out – it seems to adapt very naturally to the context he is designing for. That combined with his excellent photographer's eye, and his ability to code-smith with the best makes Damien a top contender.

3. Allan Kent, trans-media story teller and strategist. Allan is renowned for his ability to string together campaigns using every conceivable technology, software or device known to mankind, while still making it compelling for ordinary human beings to engage with. I'd hire Allan for his combination of strategic vision, marketing industry experience, and hardcore technical competency.

Eric Edelstein

Eric Edelstein

Eric Edelstein has been involved in Internet start-ups for ten years and founded incuBeta.com, Clicks2Customers.com, TrafficSynergy.com and many other well known Internet companies. When not behind his laptop, Eric speaks at Internet conferences, does corporate training and buys and sells Internet businesses on behalf of his own venture capital fund and a number of private investors.

1. Mike Stopforth, CEO of Cerebra, who is a great networker and perfect for business development.

2. Vinny Lingham ,CEO of Synthasite who moved to Silicon Valley a short while ago, but who I would drag back. He is full of ideas, ideas, ideas and has an obsessive work capacity.

3. Allan Kent, who heads up the Saatchi division AtPlay. He's got that cutting edge creative streak to come up with the winning concepts.

Eve Dmochowska

Eve Dmochowska

Eve Dmochowska spends her day playing on and with the Internet, and thinks it is a rather fun way to make money. She is writing a book on Social Media in South Africa, and has two online launches in the pipeline. She also helps others solidify their web strategy.

1 & 2. Vince Maher and Matt Buckland who have shown exemplary vision and ability to execute new media projects while at the M&G. They are the rare breed of tech savvy, journo-trained, forward thinkers that are perfect to have onboard any social media project.

3. Mike Stopforth has both the social media skills and the business acumen that is required to run an innovative and forward thinking new media agency. He also has client experience, so we would be starting a step ahead!

Jarred Cinman

Jarred Cinman

Jarred Cinman is software director at Cambrient, a local developer of web applications. He co-founded Johannesburg's first professional web development company and was one of the founders of VWV Interactive, for many years the premier creative web business in the country. Jarred co-founded Cambrient in 2001.

1. Dave Duarte: I haven't met him personally, but I have followed his activities on Twitter, his work with Creative Commons and Nomadic Marketing conferences, as well as his blog. I think he's one of the few really grounded, deep digital thinkers in the country, and has an excellent mix of academic and commercial understanding. He also comes with a fantastic network and has a lot of credibility.

2. Charl Norman: again, not someone I know personally but someone I've admired from a distance as having generated some real money from social networking sites. I think he is a rare combination of a plugged-in geek and entrepreneur, and I'd imagine he could add a lot to any new media business.

3. Brent Shahim: firmly a part of the Web 1.0 world, but really about as close to royalty in that environment as you can get. He has built up Aqua Online over the past twelve odd years into South Africa's biggest new media agency. He recently sold the business to WPP, and it is now the official digital arm of Y&R in South Africa. Brent is incredibly adept at growing new media businesses with a strong commercial slant, and since I want any business I want to be very profitable, he would be a key person to have involved.

Matthew Buckland

Matthew Buckland

Matthew Buckland is GM of the Mail & Guardian Online and co-founder of blog aggregator Amatomu.com and group editorial blog, Thought Leader. He has spoken locally and around the world on online media issues, including New York, London, Germany, Dublin and Kenya.

1. Herman Heunis, CEO and founder of MXit, one of the big mobile success stories not just in South Africa, but the world. There are also big opportunities to franchise the model overseas. It's real innovation in the Shuttleworth mould.

2. Jason Elk and his team at Zoopy, a local video sharing site similar to YouTube. Jason is a passionate and grounded person, with a brilliant team behind him. There is a great buzz and lots of lateral thinking going on at Zoopy.

3. Graunt Kruger, because he has a broad overview of the web industries and brings a strong commercial understanding with a developmental angle. Also one of the best networkers I know.

Mike Stopforth

Mike Stopforth

Mike Stopforth is an entrepreneur, writer and speaker who helps companies extract value from Web 2.0 trends and technologies. He heads up Cerebra, South Africa's leading social media company, writes a weekly column for the Citizen newspaper. Mike lectures at the Vega School of Branding; the Graduate School of Business in Cape Town, and the Gordon Institute of Business Science. Mike co-founded Web startup Afrigator, Africa's social media aggregator, and the 27dinner social networking movement.

1. Justin Hartman: I've worked with Justin on Afrigator so I know how driven, committed, reliable and competent he is. He'd be my first choice partner on any Web startup or project.

2. Vincent Maher: Vincent is a machine - he produces ideas and work at a phenomenal pace. He understands business and people and tech - a rare combination.

3. Tyler Reed: Insatiably cocky, slightly irritating and way too mature for his age, Tyler is a superstar on the rise. I just want a piece of his glory.

Paul Jacobson

Paul Jacobson

Paul Jacobson, a new media lawyer who is constantly looking at the opportunities that can emerge from the intersection of new media and the law.

1. Tyler Reed is plugged into the almost uncharted youth market and has some pretty revealing insights into how differently the youth approaches new media and media in general when compared to an older audience.

2. Mike Stopforth has the ability to translate new media jargon and concepts into plain English and get people fired up about the potential for new media. He may not be technically proficient but a vital part of selling new media is making it all intelligible and useful. Mike can do that.

3. Maximillian Kaizen is the woman you want if you need someone who can think truly outside the box and present innovative solutions to new challenges. She understands the tools and is constantly looking around for new talent to give substance to help innovate in this space even further.

Tyler Reed

Tyler Reed

Tyler Reed, a young entrepreneur, blogger and speaker. The creative strategist at Younique, a social media marketing firm, Reed spends most of his time working with the latest web 2.0 technologies and trends to find new ways of engaging consumers.

1. I would hire Mike Stopforth for his broad knowledge of web 2.0, his understanding of people and how that translates into value for business.

2. Dave Duarte because of the exciting energy that surrounds him, his passion for web 2.0 and the gift he has to be able to translate that to both the average joe and high profile executives.

3. My third person would be Uno de Waal, he is young and dynamic and has an in depth knowledge of how web 2.0 works both from a social and technological perspective.

Vincent Maher

Vincent Maher

Vincent Maher, strategist at the Mail & Guardian Online and co-founder of Amatomu.com, the South African blog aggregator and analytics system. Former Director of the New Media Lab at the Rhodes University School of Journalism & Media Studies, the managing director of Digital Commerce and a multimedia director at VWV Interactive. Maher has worked in the online media industry since 1996, has presented papers at many international conferences and specialises in profitable innovation in emerging markets.

1. Project management: Diane Wilson, Cambrient Internet Applications. Diane is probably the most experienced and capable web development project manager in the country. She has a long history starting at VWV Interactive, working under some of the most stressful conditions I have ever encountered, to her current portfolio at Cambrient. She has been trusted with a few hundred million Rands worth of web development spend and has seldom missed a deadline.

2. Lead developer: Stiaan Pretorius. I haven't worked with Stiaan directly before but everyone I meet considers him to be one of the hottest developers in the PHP/Python environment in the country. He has taken over a lot of Justin Hartman's responsibilities on Afrigator and has done a sterling job. He gets the bigger picture and he delivers, what more could you ask for.

3. Business manager: Matthew Buckland, GM, Mail & Guardian Online. Matthew knows how to monetise an online business and is the king of deal-making. In the past couple of years he has turned an online newspaper into a profitable entity, which is a miracle in itself. He is connected, efficient and operates from a set of ethical principles that I have a lot of respect for.

Finally, in doing this article there's the obvious realisation that the article header should rather have read “Welcome to the white boy's club”. Empowerment seems to have touched every other industry sector, but this one. However this is best dealt with in a dedicated column, rather than as an aside to this piece because it's such an important issue. Watch this space!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mandy de Waal is a freelance journalist, columnist and writer for hire. A former broadcast journalist, de Waal has worked as a brand consultant and helped launch M-Web, Mosaic Software and 24.com. She's worked with Microsoft, Motorola, British Telecom, Verizon, Consology and Nashua Mobile. She writes about branding, technology, new media and whatever else grabs her fancy for a number business titles including this new column for ITWeb.
Read her eclectic blog.
Follow her on Twitter.

                   
  POST YOUR COMMENT

 Comments (25)

Kate Elphick said:

Look for someone who has spent time in business, not a techie
I would say that although web 2.0 is changing the way we do business, the basic business principles still count. Web 2.0 is a way of embracing communication and collaboration to do business more effectively. The tools are merely a conduit and an opportunity.
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September 28, 2008 Votes: +0

The General said:

Its certainly a white boys club
If they do crack it in the industry they are usually underpaid, they dont get as good money as the white boys. I am a developer at one of the big gauteng news companies but to my opinion i am being paid peanuts but i want to one of the top 33 universities in the world.
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September 12, 2008 Votes: +0

Izm said:

Don’t be lazy
Well if you are not going to bother searching for "people of color" and then come up with a ridiculous statement like "Welcome to the white boys club", it leaves a lot to be desired Mandy. dont be lazy, go out, do your job and you will realise that it is not just a white boys club
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July 08, 2008 Votes: +0

boys club member said:

boys club
"I don`t believe that gender or race are ever incidental. The applications and solutions created by this industry are targeted at women, as well as people of all age groups. Like any other industry a lack of diversity doesn`t add value to this industry, it also limits their ability to work with companies and government for whom equity and diversity is a big deal."

I don’t get why this is an issue. Would someone who is encouraged to work in the IT industry based on his race or gender really add value? The people in my opinion who really add value to the IT industry, are the ones that have a passion for what they do regardless of sex or race. Recognition should be based on achievements, not based on achievements that are based on sex or race
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June 02, 2008 Votes: +0

RIchard said:

Dot Com 2.0
Agreed. It`s a nice temporary naming fad that people use to differentiate themselves from the BS that happened before. The trick is to watch out for the BS that is currently being thought up. Slashdot is social media - been around since the beginning. But now you have a bunch of people who like branding and what do you get? Gotta-have fads that they can consult on!

For "Web 2.0" read "dot.com 2.0" but slightly less hysterical.

Oh, and I`m in the thick of it - today I`m hiring offshore developers, incorporating technologies that were released in the last two months so people can share their data seamlessly etc etc etc. I just don`t need the hand-waving marketing terms. I charge actual money and make a profit.
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June 01, 2008 Votes: +0

Khathutshelo Ndouvhada said:

The shape of things to come
I agree that the web 2.0 phenomena is still a "White boys’c;lub". I don’t think that these guys should be forced into making BEE deals.

I have been building sites since my early days at UCT and the only thing that held me and my friends back was the cost of bandwidth. Right now we are busy developing our new platform.

Although our group is 100% black, I have no sympathy for BEE wannabees, if you want in on web 2.0, you should work your way up in the correct order: Hard work not a BEE bail out, that’s why I have no respect for Mr Motsepe
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May 29, 2008 Votes: +0

Khathutshelo Ndouvhada said:

I agree
This has nothing to do with black or white..It’s just information access period. I believe that the best platform to target in SA is the mobile phone. They are every where.

Cellphones are kind in SA, so thats were the beef lies. As for bandwidth, don’t even get me started..
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May 29, 2008 Votes: +0

jansie said:

remember the non-geeks, please
another white boy club left out (as i've tweeted / twooted / whatever) is the quirk team. doing great work. but, they do great work not at the expense of the user.

that's the problem with a lot of geekery. all these amazing apps come out, only to be copies of existing sites, and not as good, or simply so un-user friendly that the average joe can't even find average joy in using them.

the tool should NEVER be the focal point. if the tool is the focal point, the point is missed FAR.

i'd rather use a lesser tool that is easy to use and gives the user what they need or want, than try and figure out how this new majigger with all the shiny buttons is supposed to work.

googling something else is just too easy to neglect the user experience.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Eve Dmochowska said:

Boys, shmoys Part II
Certainly, it *is* a white boys' club, but believe me: there is no one holding a gun to any female or non-white person who would want to be a player in the space.

I know most of the people mentioned in the article personally, and certainly none would be opposed to working with a person of colour or a woman etc.

So basically, if the field excites you and you *are* non-white, or female, or both: jump in! One thing about the online world is that it is a great equaliser: you do great work, and you will be commended for it. As simple as that.

Of course, maybe the career opportunities are not marketed as well to the under-represented here, but really - it's all online. Do some research, and get cracking.

By the way, I am woman, in the Web 2.0 world, and I am doing just fine, thanks ! :-)

And, just for the record, I know Tyler Reed and I think he has carved a fab niche for himself in the "web for the youth" market. So, Greg M, if you haven't seen or come across his work, maybe you're too old? ;-)
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

me said:

Web 2.0 and other bollocks
Web 2.0 actually means very little in South Africa, you can write all the wicked applications you want or rip off as many overseas idea’s as possible but until more than 60% of the South African population have a hi-speed broadband connection and not the current 6-7% Web 2.0 (Web 1.0 with flash, Ajax and bigger talk, less results) will have less impact than a well written pamphlet distributed at a robot.Until internet connections are as numerous as water connections web 2.0 will remain the small white circle-jerk community it is, come on how many poepals from the Mail and Guardian are in this list, what the hell are you building a dream team for, so they can write another blog about the same circle jerkers on another web 2.0 website which will be read once again by the same circle jerkers,ad nauseum while some hack writes about how great it all is for some newspaper(most probably the mail and guardian)
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Mandy de Waal said:

Re: Boys, shmoys Part II
Thanks for your reply, Eve. Appreciated. But shouldn`t the industry or players who lead the industry be doing something about the disparity?
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Cath said:

Perfectly representative
you know, I’m a girl working in a career that is dominated by men. I`d like to think that I am respected for what I do, how I do it and that I am able and have proven myself to be good at what I do - those who work with me have commented suchlike before.

I look at this list, and my first reaction was NOT that it was a `white boys club`. In fact, if I look at the list (barring the nonappearance of rafiq - rafiq declined to participate) i found it to be perfectly representative of the "scene" at this time.

of course, i believe that something SHOULD be done to encourage MORE women to invest their career focus into IT, generally, and moreover black women particularly. I don`t think it can happen overnight though. It is all a process and processes, take time. It`s happening though, just you wait and see.

That said, the women who are listed here, are people I admire, both personally and professionally, and who I believe DO deserve and work damn hard for their right to be here. I don`t want to start some gender-specific fight, but it`s taken me a long, long time to be taken even vaguely seriously in what i do and how i do - because i have boobs. The women listed here inspire me to carry on, especially on days when I am ignored for having an opinion.


So,yes, sexism does still exist. Luckily for me, I think I am beyond it now. But, as I said, it`s a process and processes take time.

On the flipside of this, I have been lucky enough to not be treated in a sexist fashion by some of the people actually on this list - to be taken a little more seriously than some of the people I have encountered in person thus far, or near, in my career.

Processes take time, disparity will be alleviated. It just takes a while.

Till then, I say hells to the yeah to the creative minds listed here. And Kudos to every one of you.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Mandy de Waal said:

RE: remember the non-geeks, please
Good point Jansie. And you`re right about Quirk.

And I too favour function over form every time.

Further, useability expert Nielsen agrees with you - Web 2.0 design firms are neglecting good design.

From the BBC:

Hype about Web 2.0 is making web firms neglect the basics of good design, web usability guru Jakob Nielsen has said.

He warned that the rush to make webpages more dynamic often meant users were badly served.

He said sites peppered with personalisation tools were in danger of resembling the "glossy but useless" sites at the height of the dotcom boom.

Research into website use shows that sites were better off getting the basics right, said Mr Nielsen.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Mandy de Waal said:

RE: Tyler Reed ?
Hi Greg. I don`t know Tyler Reed personally but many of the people I spoke to for this article rated him very highly.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Mandy de Waal said:

RE: boys club shmoys club
I don`t believe that gender or race are ever incidental. The applications and solutions created by this industry are targeted at women, as well as people of all age groups. Like any other industry a lack of diversity doesn`t add value to this industry, it also limits their ability to work with companies and government for whom equity and diversity is a big deal.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Mandy de Waal said:

RE: SIMONB
So right. Rafiq should definitely been a part of this list.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

jansie said:

nielsen for president
ah, nielsen. one of my absolute heroes. i eat out of that guy`s hand. he`s brilliant. always go back to the basics.

and you can moan and groan all you want about his stance, but it`s the truth. never ever favour form over function. all you`re doing is impressing other geeks. snd if you`re out to impress other geeks, you`re obviously not in need of visitors to your site / app.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Mandy de Waal said:

nielsen for president
Very smart man. Incredibly highly regarded, and he`s right on the money!
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Vincent Maher said:

Ha ha
Frankly Jacob Nielsen is an idiot - look at his own web site as an example of "good design". The guy should have quit while he was ahead, back in 1994 before background images could tile.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

jansie said:

the great vincent maher speaks, so we should listen
that`s frank. and frankly you`re rude. you`re a small fish in a small pond saying things like that about someone who deserves respect for his position and for what he`s achieved. who are you bru? or, who do you think you are?

steve hofmeyr also thinks he`s something, and some ou tannies too.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

Tim Shier -Quirk said:

Focus on your Targets needs
Jansie, thanks for the kind words - much appreciated.

As for form vs function: our old varsity marketing textbooks hold the key to this: what does your target market want. If it’s a great technical application, then, go for it. If however, they are a not interested in that (which is typical internationally) then you need to focus on providing THEM with utility in achieving their desired outcomes.

I see this point as vital in deciding whether something is functional. It is ultimately the user who dictates success of failure.

Nielson - dig your work!
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

web2point0Reilly said:

mm yeah well no fine
slightly fruity response, but the essence is correct. unfortunately the speed of internet connectivity has nothing to do with it.

Web 2.0 is the single most vacuous phrase in IT since .net and anything `crm` - and at least .net turned into a framework (eventually) and people stopped talking about CRM after they wasted billions on it and realised it was as dull as a pigeon crap.

Even Tim 2.O`Reilly, the previously-respected inventor of this evil phrase, has stopped mentioning it as much after he realised his prize alpha geeks were all laughing at him for talking utter rubbish. He made is point once (amazon works on user driven content, wikipedia is cool and digg rocks if you rock it. users create the content. we get it.) He then proceeded to milk it for the next 5 years to sell conferences.

Web 2.0 is complete vapourware. there is nothing there. it`s a hype driven cuteness on steroids, with not a product to be seen - just some cute toy sites that all make money from advertising and the conference speaker circuit. The sites that have done well have done so because they solve a problem and are well designed, not because the creators have grasped a new paradigm of existence.... and yes, communities and user driven content is now the norm. *applause*. that actually happened a few years back. shouldn`t we kinda be moving along now?

There is no web 2.0. There is no web 3.0. There was no web 1.0. There is the internet, and it - like all technology platforms - grows. We have some brilliant people in the SA IT community (and yes, most seem to be white. not sure why this has anything to do with anything) who should be featured for the stuff they are creating and the impact they have here and abroad. Leave the hype `n spin to the corporates.
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May 28, 2008 Votes: +0

SimonB said:

...
Hey guys good to see a list of all the top players in the Web2.0 club. Couldn't help but notice you left Rafiq Phillips, Chris Mills and a few other players off the list. lol as you say the white boys club. To everyone who made the list - congrats!
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May 27, 2008 Votes: +0

wendy said:

boys club shmoys club
These are the best, gender and race are incidental
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May 27, 2008 Votes: +0

Greg M said:

Tyler Reed ?
Tyler Reed? Someone please show me any work he has done? He talks a big game but I’ve seen no results.. ppfft..
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May 27, 2008 Votes: +0

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